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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic Sir

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Richard Saunders here with you from the

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Bay Area San Francisco this is shown

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number 328 for the 30th of January 2015

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and for those of you who take notice of

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this sort of thing yes this show is out

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a couple of days early that's because

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then the show should be normally going

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out I'm going to be somewhere I want to

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know between Hawaii and Fiji flying back

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to Sydney coming up on this week's show

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gonna kick off with evidence please with

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Joe alabasta Joe will bring us up to

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date on the Tenpenny debacle fiasco

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ludicrous situation the tour has been

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canceled it seems Nova Cherie Tenpenny

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who's going to come out and tell people

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why they shouldn't vaccinate Oh dearie

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me latest news with Joe alabaster coming

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up and I can tell you in the United

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States right now more and more outbreaks

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of measles the anti-vaxxers must be so

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happy following that I visit the

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National Center for Science Education in

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Oakland and chat to my old friend

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Eugenie Scott and the new executive

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director of the the center and read a

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really interesting interview I spend

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time with these two fascinating women at

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the National Center for Science

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Education find out more with that

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interview coming up following that it's

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a week in science from the Royal

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Institution of Australia w WR I a u.s.

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dog may you then to round off the show

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Maynard spooky action main our chats to

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Dr Grant Hill courthorne a medical

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microbiologist and lecturer in

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communicable diseases good grief he's

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going to be chatting about Ebola find

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out about Ebola coming up at the end of

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the show but before we get on I'm really

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really pleased to see that the more tea

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skeptics down there in Victoria just

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sort of south of melbourne wow they are

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so active and I've got a great lineup of

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speakers this year already in fact on

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februari the third they've got dr. ken

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harvey talking about homeopathy

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on March the 16th is our old friend

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Joanne Ben amoud talking about human

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rights and then on July the seventh will

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be dr. Meredith stoic so many good

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people look just Google Morty skeptics

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mo RDI skeptics in the pub to visit

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their meetup page and if you're in that

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neck of the woods I reckon you should go

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along but now it's time for me to hmm

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run to the fridge and see if there's any

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clam chowder left Wow if you ever visit

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the san francisco bay area folks the

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clam chowder in the sourdough bowl you

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eat the chowder than you eat the bowl

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pretty damn good well I'm doing that I

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what we want is some more evidence

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hello this is Joe alabaster

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a couple of weeks ago I reported on and

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he that seemed advocate sherry ten

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pennies plan speaking tour of Australia

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and the stock Tenpenny campaign well

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there are been some developments and at

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the risk of breaking continuity and

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potentially the space-time continuum who

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knows the big news first on the

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twenty-eighth of January 2015 cherry

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Tenpenny and tour organizer Stephanie

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messenger announced that they had

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cancelled their series of Australian

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seminars I left off my report on the

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11th of January with news that all but

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two of the venue's scheduled to host ten

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pennies events had cancelled their

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bookings on January the 14th Michael's

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oriental restaurant in Brisbane made the

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announcement that they're no longer be

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hosting sherry Tenpenny then on January

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nineteenth an announcement appeared on

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the event page for the seminar to be

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held at rydges South Park Adelaide

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saying that the venue had cancelled the

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booking from the eventbrite page quote

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important notice the venue has cancelled

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our booking due to bullying by vested

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interests who do not believe in informed

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consent free speech and respect for

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others rights and who appear to support

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censorship of thought and science and

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new venue is being sought now so please

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book your ticket you'll be notified of

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the new venue in due time thank you and

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quote indeed the organizers of the event

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was still encouraging people to buy

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tickets despite the fact that every

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venue had pulled out meanwhile those

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who'd already bought tickets to the

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seminars were left with little

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information as to what was going on no

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emails were sent nor announcements made

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beyond the one i just read which was

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placed on each Eventbrite event page the

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media coverage was equally as ambiguous

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Tenpenny herself appeared on The Today

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Show in which he referred to those who

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have campaigned against her seminars in

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Australia as extremists and mentioned

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that bomb threats had been received in

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fact sherry Tenpenny as mentioned bomb

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threats repeatedly to the media bomb

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threats are rather serious and ought to

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be treated as such and of course

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reported to the authorities for

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investigation the bomb threat that I

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have witnessed

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and several people have made screenshots

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of was left in a comment on the facebook

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page of michael's oriental restaurant

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i'm going to read it verbatim here so

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i'll need richard to step in with the

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bleep here we go quote nature will take

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its cause in you psychopath you dead

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troll walking too bad if the place gets

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blown up with a bomb and quote now

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that's not an okay thing to say

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unfortunately when Tenpenny is referred

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to the bomb threat she's admitted

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mentioning who it came from one of her

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supporters the gentleman in question has

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a rather substantial history of making

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threats to vaccination advocates

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presumably he was angry at the prospect

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of Michael's oriental restaurant

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potentially cancelling 10 pennies

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booking now I'm not willing to judge all

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of Tampines supporters by the actions of

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one person all sorts of people take up

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causes without necessarily behaving in

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ways that are approved off by others who

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they campaign alongside however I am

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extremely disappointed that sherry tone

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penny has decided it's acceptable to

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tell the media the bomb threats have

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been made without disclosing that they

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were made by one of her supporters this

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omission alongside claims that those

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have campaigned against her seminars are

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extremists and terrorists suggest to the

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public that one of her critics made the

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bomb threat and I find this disingenuous

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to the extreme some media outlets have

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unfortunately run with the bomb threat

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story without diligent investigation I'm

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heartened though that others have looked

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into the issue further witnessed the

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threat itself in its context and have

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reported accurately the bomb threat was

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featured in a press release made by

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sherry Tenpenny on the twenty-eighth of

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january titled quote dr. sherry Tenpenny

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speaking to her canceled for reasons of

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safety and security and quote you know

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I've been watching the stock temp any

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campaign fairly closely and I've not

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witnessed any threats of violence coming

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from vaccination advocates if I ever do

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witness such or condemn it incredibly

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strongly threats and intimidation are

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utterly unacceptable any such behaviors

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but I have witnessed our community

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members coming together to campaign

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against anti-vaccination seminars which

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would have miss informed parents and

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parents-to-be on how to best protect the

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health of their children they've done so

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via social media petitions

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letter-writing to venues and MPs

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collating publicly available information

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and blocking it and engaging with the

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media to then have that characterized as

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a hateful campaign involving terrorism

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and extremism to be compared with the

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Charlie Hebdo killers in Paris and the

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gunman behind the Sydney siege well how

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else are those who have had to back down

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going to frame their decision to do so

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claiming persecution perhaps fits their

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self and public images better than

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having to admit that an overwhelming

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number of Australians are willing to

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stand up and say no to the spread of

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misinformation that harms children I'd

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like to finish off with a few excerpts

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from Stephanie messengers public

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announcement that the tour has been

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canceled to be frank I find some a bit

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of little bizarre and I'm glad that she

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posted it as perhaps a few people who

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came to hear of sherry Tenpenny and

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stephanie messenger via the media

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coverage of the now-canceled to her

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we'll have a look at where stephanie

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messenger is coming from and find it a

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little less likely to be evidence-based

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from stephanie messenger quote with the

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pro vaccine extremists running their

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campaign of hate intimidation bullying

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sabotage of businesses and threats of

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violence we could not in good conscience

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put the attendees speakers and new venue

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owners at risk of violence and

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harassment we are mindful that at each

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seminar they were already people booked

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in who are bringing babies and children

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along and as we were all about

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protecting babies and children we are

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not willing to go ahead and risk their

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safety when you are dealing with

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extremists you just never know what

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they're capable of doing as we have

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recently seen with the Sydney siege and

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also the Paris violence against free

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speech these Pro vaccine extremists are

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actually terrorists against free speech

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they're against people accessing all

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information

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make an informed decision regarding this

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medical procedure they are in favor of

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human sacrifice as they know some babies

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are injured and killed by vaccines but

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think this is okay for the perceived

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good of the community they are against

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people sharing whatever information they

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want and therefore they are in favor of

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censorship they believe bullying is

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acceptable when they do it venue owners

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were threatened harassed and intimidated

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to cancel the contracts we had in place

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this is bullying of course they deny all

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this but please look to their actions

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they speak louder than the words that

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they speak with their forked tongues

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what you doin say in this world is a

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declaration of who you really are and

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these people certainly made plenty of

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statements about themselves basically

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they are low vibrating souls who have

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behaved in rude arrogant violin tolerant

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controlling abusive manipulative and

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ignorant ways and so have declared this

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is who they really are they are so far

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away from the truth that they are trying

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to hold on to their ignorance and

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fearful position no matter what just

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know as higher vibrating souls who have

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learned the truth you can do much more

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to advance the truth for Otto learn by

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speaking out whenever you have an

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opportunity end quote that's about of it

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you can read the rest at your own

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leisure on the gang Kim and foundations

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Facebook page and for anyone wondering

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this lure vibrating saw received an

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automatic refund for the full purchase

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price of the ticket $79 92 from

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Stephanie messenger via Eventbrite and

276
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Oh

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my name is Carrie papi hi I'm Steve

278
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:20,110
Cogan this is Richard Saunders fight

279
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George Rob here I'm Jay novella I can

280
00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:25,570
tell you what I hate about QD would I

281
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really hate is that it comes to an end

282
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:30,760
each year QED for me it's just a

283
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:33,370
wonderful opportunity to hear lots of

284
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speakers hearing the crunch of 350

285
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people purposely and simultaneously

286
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overdosing on homeopathic pills for the

287
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10 23 event was a sound I will never

288
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,610
it's simply one of the better skeptical

289
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conventions anywhere in the world and

290
00:13:00,250 --> 00:12:56,300
you're you're asking me what I think a

291
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QED I haven't been the QED and also

292
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because it's such a personable event to

293
00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:03,860
actually meet quite a few of these

294
00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:05,870
people for the first time because you

295
00:13:11,650 --> 00:13:08,839
will meet many many fun and interesting

296
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people you will see great talks by some

297
00:13:16,780 --> 00:13:14,779
of the best thinkers and you'll also

298
00:13:19,180 --> 00:13:16,790
meet people who have a drive and a

299
00:13:21,940 --> 00:13:19,190
passion for making the world better by

300
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protecting people and not being dicks

301
00:13:26,139 --> 00:13:24,649
about it you know right down to people

302
00:13:29,259 --> 00:13:26,149
who I maybe wouldn't have heard of

303
00:13:31,389 --> 00:13:29,269
without QED calm I would be an epic

304
00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:31,399
guest because I could speak in a

305
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:34,940
flawless British accent hello everyone

306
00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:37,130
like that and everyone would be like who

307
00:13:45,009 --> 00:13:40,220
is this English guy I are you invading

308
00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:45,019
me he'd love to go QED 2015 April the 24

309
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:47,750
to the 26th in Manchester England 12

310
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main stage speakers eight panels three

311
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:53,149
comedians and 500 friends and the

312
00:13:58,060 --> 00:13:56,510
massive party tickets on 99 pounds or 69

313
00:14:01,449 --> 00:13:58,070
pounds for students for the weekend

314
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:01,459
including the Saturday night www QED

315
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:04,970
coorg to get your ticket hurry it's in

316
00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:25,170
once again I found myself in Oakland i'm

317
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:26,920
visiting the National Center for Science

318
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Education and as listeners know I've

319
00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:30,910
been visiting this wonderful place now

320
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for many years and I always come and see

321
00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:37,000
my old friend Eugenie Scott hello Jeanie

322
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hi there good to see you again good to

323
00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:40,630
see you again and it's good to hear your

324
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:43,300
voice again but today I'm very pleased

325
00:14:49,079 --> 00:14:45,610
to be here to meet and read hello hello

326
00:14:51,269 --> 00:14:49,089
nice to meet you and you're the new kid

327
00:14:56,370 --> 00:14:51,279
on the block can I say that absolutely

328
00:14:58,170 --> 00:14:56,380
it's only the truth and I see you've

329
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:58,180
settled into this office very well and

330
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:01,600
you've got quite a big job in front of

331
00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:03,310
you I can imagine oh I can't imagine

332
00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:06,310
what it must be like Jeanne you've

333
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:08,529
passed the baton so to speak well Anne

334
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,570
is not really the new kid on the block

335
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,360
she's been here for almost a year in

336
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:14,800
fact i think the anniversary is coming

337
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:17,920
up the the passing of said baton the

338
00:15:22,650 --> 00:15:20,050
baton was not dropped it was grabbed and

339
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:22,660
run with down the black so no aunt has

340
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:24,250
been doing a great job this last year

341
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,110
it's really been it's really been fun to

342
00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:28,720
see the organization developing in new

343
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:30,700
ways and new ideas popping up all the

344
00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:33,010
time it's been terrific I'm so pleased

345
00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:34,120
to hear that I'm so pleased to hear that

346
00:15:38,190 --> 00:15:35,980
because last time we spoke you were just

347
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:38,200
sort of telling us all about your

348
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:41,410
retirement coming up which it did and I

349
00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:42,839
guess you're handling that quite well

350
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:45,670
I'm getting better at retirement I mean

351
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:47,680
the thing that people don't understand

352
00:15:53,579 --> 00:15:49,410
at least I didn't understand is that

353
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:53,589
retirement takes practice you have you

354
00:15:58,410 --> 00:15:55,690
have to figure out how to not do things

355
00:16:00,510 --> 00:15:58,420
and you know if at least somebody like

356
00:16:02,070 --> 00:16:00,520
me I mean I but I'm actually you'll be

357
00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:02,080
shocked you will be shocked to hear this

358
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:04,540
my daughter was shocked I have been

359
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:07,510
watching television I'm shocked I told

360
00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:09,490
you don't you like I say I'm getting

361
00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:11,740
better at retirement good for you

362
00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:13,300
Jeannie are you looking well till you're

363
00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:15,790
looking fabulous so let's get down to

364
00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:18,100
the business Otis began you're here

365
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:20,230
you've been here from roughly a year I

366
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:23,230
guess and um well I guess it's a pretty

367
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:24,850
open question but how are you finding it

368
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:26,650
I mean is it as challenging as you

369
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:28,250
thought it would be

370
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:30,110
it is challenging and obviously it's

371
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:31,490
difficult to step into the shoes of

372
00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:34,010
someone like Jeanne and to step into an

373
00:16:39,550 --> 00:16:36,980
organization that has had such a strong

374
00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:39,560
identity over the years and try to

375
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:42,140
figure out how can I what I keep saying

376
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:47,210
is how do I not break it a good point is

377
00:16:50,650 --> 00:16:48,890
the old expression if it's if it works

378
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:50,660
don't fix it right sorry that if it

379
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:52,310
ain't broke don't fix it I think yeah

380
00:16:58,020 --> 00:16:54,910
exactly so really a very strong

381
00:17:02,050 --> 00:16:58,030
imperative not to not to screw things up

382
00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:02,060
but also to try to see how we can move

383
00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:04,459
forward knowing that what I heard during

384
00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:05,870
the interview process and what I heard

385
00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:07,640
it in my first months with the staff is

386
00:17:12,490 --> 00:17:10,790
that we know that we're only hearing the

387
00:17:15,699 --> 00:17:12,500
tip of the iceberg of what's going on

388
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:15,709
and in US schools with respect to bad

389
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:17,720
science being taught or sign settled

390
00:17:21,460 --> 00:17:19,760
science being taught as controversial so

391
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:21,470
how do we get out ahead of that how do

392
00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:25,250
we how do we get out of the situation of

393
00:17:28,990 --> 00:17:27,020
just waiting for people to tell us the

394
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:29,000
mad things are happening and find out

395
00:17:34,270 --> 00:17:32,930
about them make sure more people know

396
00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:34,280
about us make sure we find out about

397
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:36,230
more things happening and ideally

398
00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:38,240
prevent them from happening in the first

399
00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:40,340
place so that's really been what I've

400
00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:42,620
been working with the staff on for the

401
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:44,750
last year's how do we do that I think

402
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,210
that's fantastic i'm and we can't drop a

403
00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:50,480
stitch in time saves nine and announce

404
00:17:54,790 --> 00:17:52,520
it what is it on scientific inventions

405
00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:54,800
worth a pound of cure you've really been

406
00:17:59,560 --> 00:17:56,270
you could really been reading your Ben

407
00:18:01,440 --> 00:17:59,570
Franklin what did you know that he wrote

408
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:01,450
under the name of Richard Saunders

409
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:04,850
that's right i forgot of that a poor

410
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:07,760
richard's almanack i'd forgotten in

411
00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:10,640
everett we digress but than usual in

412
00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:14,470
this interview is I think that's

413
00:18:19,389 --> 00:18:16,790
absolutely right and just before the

414
00:18:22,539 --> 00:18:19,399
interview we were just chatting about

415
00:18:24,849 --> 00:18:22,549
anti-vaccination which is a big issue of

416
00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:24,859
course in other spheres and that's the

417
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:27,769
attitude there too I mean if we can in

418
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:30,559
that fight if we can we stop the damage

419
00:18:34,899 --> 00:18:32,330
before it starts it saves us running

420
00:18:37,779 --> 00:18:34,909
around trying to fix it kids in that

421
00:18:39,399 --> 00:18:37,789
respect so that's that's I think that's

422
00:18:41,499 --> 00:18:39,409
absolutely the right attitude to have

423
00:18:44,289 --> 00:18:41,509
and how do you think you've been going

424
00:18:46,629 --> 00:18:44,299
over the last year of that attitude well

425
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:46,639
it would be nice to say oh well we've we

426
00:18:51,729 --> 00:18:50,690
fixed it um we haven't but I just want

427
00:18:54,399 --> 00:18:51,739
to throw out some numbers because I

428
00:18:58,359 --> 00:18:54,409
think they're very striking so there was

429
00:19:00,729 --> 00:18:58,369
a study by burkman and plus her about

430
00:19:02,979 --> 00:19:00,739
five years ago now that looked at how

431
00:19:06,430 --> 00:19:02,989
many biology teachers were teaching

432
00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:06,440
either creationism or teaching straight

433
00:19:11,709 --> 00:19:08,950
up teaching creationism or teaching

434
00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:11,719
creationism as a valid alternative to

435
00:19:16,239 --> 00:19:13,940
evolutions or teaching both sides and

436
00:19:18,940 --> 00:19:16,249
the numbers were really shocking the

437
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:18,950
very large number of biology teachers I

438
00:19:22,749 --> 00:19:21,529
forget that exact percentage yet the

439
00:19:24,639 --> 00:19:22,759
third kind of depending on how the

440
00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:24,649
question a quarter to a third it was a

441
00:19:29,049 --> 00:19:26,929
little bit shocking yeah Wow but even if

442
00:19:30,639 --> 00:19:29,059
you took that the really worst case

443
00:19:32,859 --> 00:19:30,649
scenario of their teaching creationism I

444
00:19:35,079 --> 00:19:32,869
believe was 16 yeah her son was lowered

445
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:35,089
and if you but even if you just take

446
00:19:38,649 --> 00:19:37,190
that and you multiply it you say sixteen

447
00:19:41,889 --> 00:19:38,659
percent of American biology teachers

448
00:19:43,719 --> 00:19:41,899
which is 53,000 and how many millions of

449
00:19:46,029 --> 00:19:43,729
American high school students there are

450
00:19:47,769 --> 00:19:46,039
there are and you divide evenly which is

451
00:19:49,779 --> 00:19:47,779
not necessarily the case because some

452
00:19:53,289 --> 00:19:49,789
classes are bigger than others it works

453
00:19:55,149 --> 00:19:53,299
out to about 420,000 biology students a

454
00:19:57,609 --> 00:19:55,159
year in the United States learning

455
00:20:01,509 --> 00:19:57,619
creationism instead of evolution it's

456
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:01,519
absolutely stunning number and we hear

457
00:20:06,430 --> 00:20:04,129
about maybe a hundred cases a year yeah

458
00:20:09,419 --> 00:20:06,440
so we're not clearly only dealing with

459
00:20:13,570 --> 00:20:09,429
the tip of the iceberg so how do we

460
00:20:16,539 --> 00:20:13,580
flush those teachers out how do we

461
00:20:18,159 --> 00:20:16,549
identify the community well we certainly

462
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:18,169
know where some of these communities are

463
00:20:26,109 --> 00:20:21,049
but how do we get at that how do we make

464
00:20:28,659 --> 00:20:26,119
it so unacceptable that we start shaming

465
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:28,669
these communities into not allowing that

466
00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:32,190
to happen so we're going at it and

467
00:20:38,659 --> 00:20:34,769
three pronged effort reaching out to

468
00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:38,669
teachers directly knowing that most

469
00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:40,440
science teachers doing a great job yeah

470
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:41,940
and they're doing a great job with very

471
00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:44,220
limited resources and with increasingly

472
00:20:48,889 --> 00:20:47,220
high demands on what they're expected to

473
00:20:51,049 --> 00:20:48,899
get across and how they're going to be

474
00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:51,059
assessed for it they need to be propped

475
00:20:55,879 --> 00:20:53,340
up they need to be told you guys are the

476
00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:55,889
best you are you are the foundation of

477
00:21:00,610 --> 00:20:58,620
fixing this problem in the u.s. of

478
00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:00,620
science illiteracy and and and

479
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:02,220
vulnerability to that kind of

480
00:21:06,919 --> 00:21:05,129
anti-vaxxers and other yes anti science

481
00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:06,929
people it's amazing how it all ties in

482
00:21:11,090 --> 00:21:09,720
somehow yeah yeah because auntie vax

483
00:21:12,259 --> 00:21:11,100
doesn't it that doesn't show up in

484
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:12,269
textbooks it's not something that

485
00:21:15,769 --> 00:21:14,100
teachers teach in schools but it's the

486
00:21:17,389 --> 00:21:15,779
same phenomenon it's a slipping of the

487
00:21:19,399 --> 00:21:17,399
standards it's it's once you let

488
00:21:20,990 --> 00:21:19,409
something in the door like that it's

489
00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:21,000
easy for the rest of it to come in I

490
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:22,200
guess well once you start saying

491
00:21:26,029 --> 00:21:24,000
scientists are just like any other group

492
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:26,039
and they just say whatever is in their

493
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:28,730
best interests and Sciences is not

494
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,440
dissenters disinterested sciences not

495
00:21:36,379 --> 00:21:34,080
impartial then you really are on a

496
00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:36,389
slippery slope Oh scientists believe

497
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:37,710
this but here's another point of view

498
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:39,870
that's sort of thinking right well in

499
00:21:44,629 --> 00:21:42,720
that sort of equal time kind of thinking

500
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:44,639
or something that we battled for a long

501
00:21:50,029 --> 00:21:48,110
time and but I think I think Anna's is

502
00:21:53,779 --> 00:21:50,039
talking about something that's a little

503
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:53,789
bit a little bit deeper it's about what

504
00:21:58,129 --> 00:21:55,919
i would like to think in the most

505
00:22:00,919 --> 00:21:58,139
generous attitude and misunderstanding

506
00:22:03,259 --> 00:22:00,929
of the scientific process and how

507
00:22:05,570 --> 00:22:03,269
scientists go about doing their jobs but

508
00:22:08,539 --> 00:22:05,580
i'm becoming more and more convinced

509
00:22:12,289 --> 00:22:08,549
that they're there really we're on the

510
00:22:14,539 --> 00:22:12,299
cusp of a shift to an attitude in a

511
00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:14,549
substantial portion of the population in

512
00:22:21,139 --> 00:22:18,179
which just to use anne's phrase science

513
00:22:24,499 --> 00:22:21,149
is you know just another way of knowing

514
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:24,509
at me it's it's no better or any worse

515
00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:27,330
than any other kind of way of coming to

516
00:22:33,289 --> 00:22:30,659
a decision about something and you know

517
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:33,299
for a lot of things that may be true i

518
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:35,370
mean science isn't going to tell us

519
00:22:38,629 --> 00:22:36,960
whether the democrats the health plan or

520
00:22:41,149 --> 00:22:38,639
the republicans health plan is better

521
00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:41,159
but if you're talking about something

522
00:22:47,419 --> 00:22:44,820
like vaccinations or how better to teach

523
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:47,429
change in schools or the reality of

524
00:22:52,159 --> 00:22:50,610
evolution yah to render unto science I

525
00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:52,169
mean science really does the best way of

526
00:22:56,919 --> 00:22:54,360
knowing produces and to the extent that

527
00:22:59,779 --> 00:22:56,929
there may be in American culture

528
00:23:03,139 --> 00:22:59,789
currents that are attacking that

529
00:23:04,909 --> 00:23:03,149
fundamental foundation of confidence in

530
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:04,919
science notice I didn't say faith in

531
00:23:09,019 --> 00:23:06,720
science that's different but the

532
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:09,029
confidence in science that I think has

533
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:11,940
been traditional in America we've you

534
00:23:16,669 --> 00:23:13,710
know all of the surveys have shown for

535
00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:16,679
decades that Americans like science they

536
00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:18,360
appreciate what science does for them

537
00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:19,860
they like their science gadgets they

538
00:23:24,049 --> 00:23:22,740
like grandma's new hip transplant and

539
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:24,059
you know they like the midlife

540
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:27,360
technology but when science impinges

541
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:30,690
upon their ideological and emotional

542
00:23:34,669 --> 00:23:32,730
concerns I mean I want I don't want my

543
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:34,679
baby to get sick when somebody comes up

544
00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:36,090
and tells me that vaccines are going to

545
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:37,740
make my baby sick and those scientists

546
00:23:41,539 --> 00:23:39,529
are all in the payroll of the big

547
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:41,549
pharmaceutical companies anyway old

548
00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:45,090
arguments yeah you know my my concern

549
00:23:50,029 --> 00:23:47,820
for my child's welfare is going to make

550
00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:50,039
me listen very seriously to that

551
00:23:54,649 --> 00:23:53,340
alternate point of view even though if

552
00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:54,659
you know somebody came up and said Oh

553
00:23:58,369 --> 00:23:56,190
what they're saying about photosynthesis

554
00:24:00,529 --> 00:23:58,379
is wrong because all of the signs all of

555
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:00,539
the botanists are only in the pockets of

556
00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:02,129
big sigh whatever they would say about

557
00:24:06,529 --> 00:24:03,990
foot ascend no it wouldn't matter to me

558
00:24:08,899 --> 00:24:06,539
but my kids health is important yeah so

559
00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:08,909
I've got an emotional concomitant to

560
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:10,769
that and it's the same way with climate

561
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:12,330
change it's the same way with evolution

562
00:24:18,379 --> 00:24:15,450
too well that we get back to the matter

563
00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:18,389
of creationism especially and I could

564
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:20,070
imagine some parents would say well my

565
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,710
kids or my religion is important to me

566
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:24,480
and therefore it's important to my kids

567
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:25,950
and this is what I want taught to them

568
00:24:30,019 --> 00:24:28,350
in in the schools it's the old battle

569
00:24:31,519 --> 00:24:30,029
isn't one of the reasons we know that

570
00:24:33,619 --> 00:24:31,529
there are so many hundreds of thousands

571
00:24:35,629 --> 00:24:33,629
of students learning about creationism

572
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:35,639
is because teachers were surveyed

573
00:24:39,019 --> 00:24:36,990
biology teachers were surveyed about

574
00:24:40,399 --> 00:24:39,029
what they were teaching and we found as

575
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:40,409
we were trying to figure out what to do

576
00:24:43,999 --> 00:24:42,330
about climate change denial in the

577
00:24:47,389 --> 00:24:44,009
classroom that we didn't have any good

578
00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:47,399
data on what was being taught and and

579
00:24:52,249 --> 00:24:50,340
how it was being taught so we are just

580
00:24:54,590 --> 00:24:52,259
now gathering the results of a survey

581
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:54,600
that was done in the fall of 8000 middle

582
00:24:57,580 --> 00:24:55,919
school and high school science teachers

583
00:25:01,899 --> 00:24:57,590
about what they're teaching

584
00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:01,909
about climate change and we are hopeful

585
00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:03,950
that that will give us the kind of deep

586
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:05,600
information that we need to know what

587
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:07,490
what is what problem are we facing in

588
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:10,010
classrooms where is it happening is it a

589
00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:12,770
problem of people being children being

590
00:25:18,399 --> 00:25:15,860
taught that climate science that climate

591
00:25:20,019 --> 00:25:18,409
change isn't happening or is it children

592
00:25:21,820 --> 00:25:20,029
are being taught that it's not settled

593
00:25:25,210 --> 00:25:21,830
science and that its controversial or

594
00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:25,220
are they being taught good solid science

595
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:26,900
on the topic we just we just don't know

596
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:28,250
but we hope the survey will give us

597
00:25:32,019 --> 00:25:30,230
those answers it's interesting because

598
00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:32,029
back home I get the impression a lot of

599
00:25:37,090 --> 00:25:34,549
the opposition why they'll catch it is

600
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:37,100
that oh it's not settled oh and some

601
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:39,260
scientists this is dis creationism all

602
00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:40,970
over again isn't it it's it's

603
00:25:44,639 --> 00:25:42,830
fascinating it's like it's almost like

604
00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:44,649
history repeating itself it's the same

605
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:47,270
we call it the science denial playbook

606
00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:49,010
and you can practically follow along

607
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:51,500
with each kind of objection that they're

608
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:53,120
going to come up with whatever that kind

609
00:25:57,820 --> 00:25:55,010
of science it is and and that one is you

610
00:25:59,620 --> 00:25:57,830
can never have enough evidence yeah yeah

611
00:26:01,930 --> 00:25:59,630
to convince some absolute and the same

612
00:26:03,549 --> 00:26:01,940
with the vaccine right it's it's amazing

613
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:03,559
what do you call the science in our

614
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:07,090
playbook oh that should be a real book

615
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:09,710
that should be latex book for skeptics

616
00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:11,210
that's good I like that okay there's an

617
00:26:14,769 --> 00:26:13,279
idea for you listeners out there get to

618
00:26:17,260 --> 00:26:14,779
it I don't just backtrack a little bit

619
00:26:18,909 --> 00:26:17,270
because I only talked about 11 leg of

620
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:18,919
this stool that three like it's going is

621
00:26:25,529 --> 00:26:22,000
building so that that being the teachers

622
00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:25,539
that they we would like them to know

623
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:27,799
that we have their backs and that we

624
00:26:33,070 --> 00:26:29,570
understand the role that they play in

625
00:26:35,409 --> 00:26:33,080
the in the scientific enterprise and

626
00:26:37,570 --> 00:26:35,419
support them in that and at the same

627
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:37,580
time make sure that they are doing the

628
00:26:40,299 --> 00:26:38,690
right thing make sure that they know

629
00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:40,309
that it's not appropriate to teach

630
00:26:45,159 --> 00:26:42,470
climate change as a debate over the

631
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:45,169
science so that's one like the other leg

632
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,210
is the scientists themselves and not

633
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:48,799
just the evolutionary biologists and not

634
00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:49,970
just the climate scientists but the

635
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:52,520
entire scientific community needs to

636
00:26:56,019 --> 00:26:54,559
recognize that when as we've just been

637
00:26:59,130 --> 00:26:56,029
saying when science is attacked in one

638
00:27:01,930 --> 00:26:59,140
sphere it affects faith and science

639
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:01,940
confidence in science in general it

640
00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:03,710
hurts the brand to use sermon

641
00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:07,070
advertising term and so the the Society

642
00:27:10,780 --> 00:27:09,380
of you know the American Chemical

643
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:10,790
Society which is a supporting

644
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:13,910
organization of NCSE the physicists the

645
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:18,110
molecular biologists the meteorologists

646
00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:20,690
the dentist everybody who uses science

647
00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:23,750
in their profession needs to recognize

648
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:25,820
that this kind of anti-science talk

649
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:27,770
hurts them even if they're not attacking

650
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:30,050
their particular area of science and a

651
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:32,450
lot of scientists really don't know how

652
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:35,510
to help they don't even know how to talk

653
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:40,580
to deniers big point good point now we

654
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:43,070
discover this absolutely back home with

655
00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:45,650
with getting the message across and you

656
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:48,140
can know you stuff I know a lot of good

657
00:27:51,130 --> 00:27:49,640
skeptics and good scientists who

658
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:51,140
certainly know their stuff but it's that

659
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:53,840
but communication is what it's called

660
00:27:59,260 --> 00:27:56,170
ethereal communication that a skill that

661
00:28:01,450 --> 00:27:59,270
technique which is practice as well I

662
00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:01,460
imagine it's practice but it's also a

663
00:28:09,910 --> 00:28:06,740
set of its that's hard to say it's it's

664
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:09,920
a skill there may be some people who are

665
00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:12,170
just inherently clearer communicators

666
00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:13,400
and others but it's something that

667
00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:16,190
everyone can learn and and there are

668
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:18,680
certain phrasings that you need to think

669
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:21,110
about which communicate the way you want

670
00:28:28,570 --> 00:28:22,640
the information to be transmitted

671
00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:28,580
without communicating a bunch of of may

672
00:28:35,620 --> 00:28:31,190
be uncorrelated ideas that actually lead

673
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:35,630
a person into into misunderstanding so

674
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:38,150
yeah I think there's a even more

675
00:28:42,390 --> 00:28:40,490
fundamental than the fact that a lot of

676
00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:42,400
scientists are not terrific

677
00:28:47,650 --> 00:28:45,800
communicators is that they erroneously

678
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:47,660
think that what they need to communicate

679
00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:51,320
is science and that's not the case in

680
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:54,620
these in these instances that the way to

681
00:28:59,200 --> 00:28:56,840
convince a creationist that evolution is

682
00:29:02,140 --> 00:28:59,210
real is not to sit that person down and

683
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:02,150
hammer them with evolution you know it's

684
00:29:09,070 --> 00:29:05,450
it's to take that step back and say this

685
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:09,080
is about your faith isn't it you feel

686
00:29:13,270 --> 00:29:10,910
that evolution threatens your faith yeah

687
00:29:15,610 --> 00:29:13,280
did you know that there are hundreds of

688
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:15,620
thousands of Christians who don't see it

689
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:17,720
as threatening their faith can you think

690
00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:20,240
about it as a as something outside of

691
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:22,310
your religion kind of the way the

692
00:29:25,810 --> 00:29:24,290
analogy that I've used that that p

693
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:25,820
makes people laugh but I think it is

694
00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:29,840
helpful is that it's like playing soccer

695
00:29:34,270 --> 00:29:31,700
you're not allowed to pick up the ball

696
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:34,280
and in science you're not allowed to

697
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:37,850
invoke God you can invoke God it at

698
00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:39,530
church you can invoke God in the way you

699
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:41,300
understand the Bible that's all fine but

700
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:42,470
if you're going to talk about science

701
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:44,240
you can't do that it's not allowed and

702
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:47,450
so when you learn about evolution you're

703
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:49,070
going to learn about how scientists

704
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:52,970
explain what's going on in biological

705
00:29:59,320 --> 00:29:55,970
diversity and without being able to

706
00:30:02,680 --> 00:29:59,330
invoke a supernatural influence hmm salt

707
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,690
it is it's separate this is an old old

708
00:30:07,180 --> 00:30:04,880
argument that genie is a past master at

709
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:07,190
making but it's it's real news to

710
00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:09,110
scientist you can sort of see this sort

711
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:11,900
of light bulb go on in their heads it oh

712
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:14,690
oh i get it and climate change is

713
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:17,120
similar it's not religion but but people

714
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,530
who is almost yes I do is I try to get

715
00:30:26,530 --> 00:30:23,600
politics its economics it's there are a

716
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:26,540
couple of issues that we touch upon in

717
00:30:30,190 --> 00:30:28,070
the Australian skeptics in the skeptics

718
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:30,200
and podcasts from time to time which get

719
00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:33,110
a reaction like none other and climate

720
00:30:37,630 --> 00:30:34,670
change is one of them because people

721
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:37,640
will write in absolutely livid that we

722
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:40,730
dare to be on the side of what we

723
00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:42,110
consider to be the scientific consensus

724
00:30:47,050 --> 00:30:44,630
and I've had people bail me up in our

725
00:30:48,910 --> 00:30:47,060
pub meetings demand that we take on this

726
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:48,920
issue and say well you know it's sort of

727
00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:50,330
an issue are interested in but that's

728
00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:53,180
not where out of heart lies and they get

729
00:30:57,670 --> 00:30:55,340
terribly offended you know but I think

730
00:31:00,640 --> 00:30:57,680
that's the same with it were there any

731
00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:00,650
passion any interest like that so when

732
00:31:04,450 --> 00:31:02,180
you ask about am I going to get out and

733
00:31:06,010 --> 00:31:04,460
about the one community that I have

734
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:06,020
started to get out and about with and

735
00:31:09,670 --> 00:31:07,580
will do more is the scientific community

736
00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:09,680
which is really the world that I came

737
00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:12,680
from before coming here so talking to

738
00:31:19,090 --> 00:31:15,590
scientists about how they can be helpful

739
00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:19,100
in this issue and not counterproductive

740
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,390
you know seems to reach fall on willing

741
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:25,760
ears and then the third leg of the stool

742
00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:27,350
which are just getting started in fact I

743
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:30,350
just listed the position and the

744
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:32,570
chronicle of higher education is to do a

745
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:35,120
pilot project to start cyan't community

746
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:36,890
science booster clubs

747
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:38,810
in local communities where parents and

748
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:40,910
local businesses that care about an

749
00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:43,730
educated workforce skeptics humanists

750
00:31:47,170 --> 00:31:45,860
anybody who's interested in the science

751
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:47,180
education their kids are getting could

752
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:50,210
get involved in these clubs and support

753
00:31:56,350 --> 00:31:53,390
their local teachers and informal

754
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,360
science educators so whether that means

755
00:32:00,400 --> 00:31:59,360
raising money to send their local

756
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:00,410
teachers to the National Science

757
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:02,930
Teachers Association meeting or have a

758
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:04,910
community science fair where all of the

759
00:32:10,660 --> 00:32:08,810
schools can bring to a local auditorium

760
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:10,670
what their classes are learning just

761
00:32:15,490 --> 00:32:13,220
some way to make sure that people have a

762
00:32:16,690 --> 00:32:15,500
have a connection to what their science

763
00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:16,700
teachers are doing and what their kids

764
00:32:20,980 --> 00:32:18,620
are learning in the hope again of

765
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:20,990
flushing out the situations where it's

766
00:32:24,970 --> 00:32:23,510
not going well but more importantly

767
00:32:26,050 --> 00:32:24,980
supporting the places where it really is

768
00:32:29,950 --> 00:32:26,060
going all which is going to be the

769
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:29,960
majority of places so I hope that that

770
00:32:33,910 --> 00:32:31,310
will really get me out to lots of

771
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:33,920
communities that are interested in

772
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,410
improving the science education in their

773
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:38,720
towns it's interesting because I guess

774
00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:41,030
you're being on the front line so to

775
00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:42,500
speak and this is something that you're

776
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:44,270
vitally interested in when I think of

777
00:32:50,790 --> 00:32:46,070
the situation back in Australia this was

778
00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:50,800
a big issue for us well 25 years ago

779
00:32:56,290 --> 00:32:54,200
even up to 15 10 years ago was sort of

780
00:32:59,950 --> 00:32:56,300
still there but to be honest with you

781
00:33:02,140 --> 00:32:59,960
today it is we could go for a long time

782
00:33:04,390 --> 00:33:02,150
not even hear this issue I'm in

783
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:04,400
Queensland even in Queensland you know

784
00:33:11,710 --> 00:33:08,720
what we call the deep north um and I'm

785
00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:11,720
wondering whether that's because if the

786
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:13,400
cultural thing we're because we're

787
00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:15,710
winning I don't know what would you be

788
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:18,230
your take Gennie well you know it's kind

789
00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:19,970
of hard for me to pontificate about

790
00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:21,950
Australia I'm not there you're much

791
00:33:29,230 --> 00:33:25,070
better informed than I am but it's a

792
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:29,240
it's a country with a small population

793
00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:33,650
relative Joe devours and I think when

794
00:33:38,590 --> 00:33:36,020
you have smaller communities like that

795
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:38,600
the presence of charismatic leaders is

796
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:41,090
extremely important and you sent ken ham

797
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:44,930
to us and seriously he was he was a

798
00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:48,790
major force in Australian creationism

799
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:52,660
he was there and stimulating others to

800
00:33:57,570 --> 00:33:55,270
you know to become active as and of

801
00:34:01,470 --> 00:33:57,580
course he did stuff too but yeah and

802
00:34:04,140 --> 00:34:01,480
then he then he went east and came to

803
00:34:08,490 --> 00:34:04,150
the US and cut his teeth at the icr you

804
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:08,500
will turn to him yeah thanks thanks well

805
00:34:13,050 --> 00:34:11,050
if we have a joke Biko we've sent Canham

806
00:34:16,909 --> 00:34:13,060
here but you sent us Meryl Dory who's

807
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:16,919
the Australia's number one ant evac sir

808
00:34:22,409 --> 00:34:20,169
we do owe you an apology but actually

809
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:22,419
it's even worse than that yes you sent

810
00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:24,610
us Ken Ham but that was payback because

811
00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:28,780
we sent you the gift and Morris from the

812
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:30,520
insta generation research and they're

813
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:32,890
the ones who's got everybody all excited

814
00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:35,679
about creationism in Australia and then

815
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:37,780
the rest is history but you're right i

816
00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:41,050
get the feeling also from talking with

817
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:43,470
other australian friends and my

818
00:34:47,580 --> 00:34:45,910
infrequent visits they wish they were

819
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:47,590
more frequent visits to australia that

820
00:34:52,770 --> 00:34:50,350
the creationism issue isn't really the

821
00:34:54,419 --> 00:34:52,780
big deal not anything less what it used

822
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:54,429
to be when the australian skeptic

823
00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:57,040
started in the very early 80s it was one

824
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,690
of the biggest one of the bigger issues

825
00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:00,880
of the organization yeah it was one of

826
00:35:05,730 --> 00:35:03,580
the organizing conflicts I think the guy

827
00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:05,740
you guys stuck oh yeah yeah yeah but

828
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:07,150
then there's plenty of other woo to keep

829
00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:08,710
track I mean one of the things that you

830
00:35:13,980 --> 00:35:11,560
guys do marvelously and I should really

831
00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:13,990
sit down with an someday and drag out

832
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:17,140
those videotapes but is your your work

833
00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:21,250
with dowsers because that is such a

834
00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:24,670
wonderful example of it can be used as

835
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:27,400
such a wonderful example of how science

836
00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:29,350
works yeah yeah because what the

837
00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:31,360
Australian skeptics did on more than one

838
00:35:37,860 --> 00:35:34,630
occasion is they worked with the

839
00:35:39,570 --> 00:35:37,870
committed dowsers in Australia to set up

840
00:35:41,610 --> 00:35:39,580
controlled experiments the dowsers

841
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:41,620
agreed with the protocol oh of course we

842
00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:43,330
can find water under those circumstances

843
00:35:49,020 --> 00:35:45,940
and this you know they range from very

844
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:49,030
elaborate two very simple protocols but

845
00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:52,810
in all of the tests that were done there

846
00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:54,760
was double blinding which of course is

847
00:36:00,450 --> 00:35:56,710
such an important principle because it's

848
00:36:01,370 --> 00:36:00,460
so easy to kill yourself we're human

849
00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:01,380
beings and we're going to

850
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:03,150
we want to see but these were all

851
00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:05,450
double-blinded tests of whether these

852
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:08,430
dowsers who were you know find water all

853
00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:10,320
the time could do so under controlled

854
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:12,660
circumstances and of course the

855
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:15,330
wonderful results is that in every

856
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:19,050
single case the dowsers did only as well

857
00:36:23,090 --> 00:36:21,450
as expected by chance which we knew they

858
00:36:26,690 --> 00:36:23,100
would do but which it's lovely to

859
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:26,700
demonstrate I have used and recommended

860
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:29,790
the Australian dowsing protocol shall we

861
00:36:33,470 --> 00:36:31,650
say and and the lovely thing is that you

862
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:33,480
can find videos of what went on and how

863
00:36:36,860 --> 00:36:34,890
they set it all up and these are all I

864
00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:36,870
go to it made them available very nicely

865
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:38,700
well just benefit out and quickly for

866
00:36:43,970 --> 00:36:39,990
the benefit of our listeners if you

867
00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:43,980
google james randi in australia which is

868
00:36:47,690 --> 00:36:46,140
the name of the documentary made in 1980

869
00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:47,700
which is a famous set of water divining

870
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:50,670
tests or if you google the mighty mitter

871
00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:53,910
muster water divining test the meter

872
00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:55,470
meter meter is a little country town

873
00:36:59,480 --> 00:36:57,600
it's beautiful but every year they have

874
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:59,490
a fair and we've gone there a couple of

875
00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:01,200
times to test the local water diviners

876
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:03,000
and that's quite fun or if you google my

877
00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:04,470
name Richard Saunders and water divining

878
00:37:08,090 --> 00:37:06,180
you'll see some tests up like that but

879
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:08,100
thank you GD yes and we're quite pleased

880
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:09,570
with those because they are a great way

881
00:37:14,570 --> 00:37:12,330
to teach people basic science actually

882
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,580
and the other thing that that I've

883
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:16,320
recommended them I've recommended them

884
00:37:22,750 --> 00:37:19,410
to teachers as a way for teachers to

885
00:37:27,220 --> 00:37:22,760
teach things like can scientifically

886
00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:27,230
variables constant double blinding

887
00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:30,480
hypothesis formation and testing because

888
00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:34,070
you can you can you know have the kids

889
00:37:38,330 --> 00:37:36,600
think through themselves show them a

890
00:37:40,490 --> 00:37:38,340
little bit of a clip and then well why

891
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,500
did they do it this way why did they why

892
00:37:44,510 --> 00:37:42,480
did they cover the bags of sand or the

893
00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:44,520
bags of water so that nobody could see

894
00:37:48,260 --> 00:37:46,350
them and why did they have bags of sand

895
00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:48,270
as well as bags of water and the

896
00:37:53,060 --> 00:37:51,150
students should look at well because if

897
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:53,070
it's a heavy bag is going to press down

898
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:54,690
on the grass and then that would might

899
00:37:58,940 --> 00:37:56,730
qu that's what I mean you can have the

900
00:38:02,870 --> 00:37:58,950
kids work through the ideas controls

901
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:02,880
were set up and teachers teachers can

902
00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:04,170
really benefit from this sort of thing

903
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:06,150
because teaching science as a way of

904
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:08,310
knowing is usually done so didactically

905
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:10,710
and so boringly that kids just sort of

906
00:38:14,359 --> 00:38:13,290
memorize the you know seventh grade

907
00:38:17,250 --> 00:38:14,369
science

908
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:17,260
forget about him the next week when we

909
00:38:20,430 --> 00:38:18,790
do that at schools we do this water

910
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:20,440
binding test in schools the kids love it

911
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:23,170
they get to stand up with the rods and

912
00:38:26,670 --> 00:38:24,910
they walk along and see if they can find

913
00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:26,680
the water then it's blinded and the kids

914
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:28,270
are screaming from the audience go on

915
00:38:33,329 --> 00:38:30,010
find it and all this sort of thing so I

916
00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:33,339
I get a big kick out of doing what what

917
00:38:39,270 --> 00:38:35,950
and doesn't know is that Richard and and

918
00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:39,280
some of his partners will have a show

919
00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:42,700
that they do for public schools it's

920
00:38:46,829 --> 00:38:45,040
obviously an assertive yeah mystery

921
00:38:48,510 --> 00:38:46,839
mystery investigators right it's like

922
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:48,520
middle school and high school years yeah

923
00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:51,730
and they have this great school assembly

924
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:54,460
that they do it that's really fun oh you

925
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:56,890
can come on my show anytime ginger well

926
00:39:01,680 --> 00:38:59,680
Jeannie nn thank you so much for letting

927
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:01,690
me come by once again to the National

928
00:39:06,930 --> 00:39:04,240
Center for Science Education I've loved

929
00:39:09,089 --> 00:39:06,940
dropping by every time you continue to

930
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:09,099
do so I certainly could he couldn't keep

931
00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:10,720
me away you could not keep me away and

932
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:13,150
i'll leave the final word to you you've

933
00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:16,390
got a big job ahead of you there's no

934
00:39:19,950 --> 00:39:17,950
doubt about it this is not an easy thing

935
00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:19,960
to do it's not a high and easy not to

936
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:22,990
crack is it it isn't easy but the vast

937
00:39:28,339 --> 00:39:25,690
majority of people support it and I have

938
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:28,349
been so stunned during this year that

939
00:39:33,329 --> 00:39:30,910
anyone who asked me and not just

940
00:39:35,550 --> 00:39:33,339
scientists what do you do and I say well

941
00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:35,560
we try to keep bad stuff out of science

942
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:37,630
classrooms then they say oh thank you

943
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:40,480
thank you for doing that so that's very

944
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:42,310
very heartening and I know that if we

945
00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:45,130
can just figure out a way to engage and

946
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:46,630
to enlist more and more the people who

947
00:39:50,970 --> 00:39:48,910
already agree with us I think we'll be

948
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:50,980
able to make a dent in that problem I

949
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:53,410
think so and this is exactly what the

950
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:55,119
National Center for Science Education to

951
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:56,890
be doing for many years and if people

952
00:40:02,690 --> 00:39:59,440
want to find out more what's the URL

953
00:40:17,550 --> 00:40:02,700
they can visit NCSE

954
00:40:19,859 --> 00:40:17,560
NCSE calm thank you again hi this is

955
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:19,869
column Ryan from Cork skeptics in the

956
00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:22,210
Republic of Ireland here our next event

957
00:40:26,220 --> 00:40:24,520
skeptics in the castle features Michael

958
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:26,230
Marshall recounting his ongoing

959
00:40:31,380 --> 00:40:29,130
adventures in the world of pseudoscience

960
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:31,390
Michael needs no introduction to

961
00:40:36,570 --> 00:40:34,570
skeptics he is the organizer of the QED

962
00:40:38,490 --> 00:40:36,580
conference in the UK as well as the vice

963
00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:38,500
president of the Merseyside skeptics

964
00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:40,420
society and the project director of the

965
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:42,609
good thinking society he regularly

966
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:44,410
speaks with proponents of pseudoscience

967
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:47,650
for the be reasonable podcast as well as

968
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:49,510
co-hosting the skeptics with a cave

969
00:40:56,070 --> 00:40:52,960
podcast his talk begins at eight pm on

970
00:40:58,349 --> 00:40:56,080
Thursday the fifth of februari the venue

971
00:41:01,140 --> 00:40:58,359
is Black Rock castle Observatory near

972
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:01,150
Cork City it's free to attend and all

973
00:41:05,099 --> 00:41:03,040
are welcome we look forward to seeing

974
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:05,109
you there the skeptic sign is brought to

975
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:08,650
you by dr. Bob's trivia quiz visit dr.

976
00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:12,160
Bob's quiz wordpress.com and see if you

977
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:16,990
can match wits with dr. Bob welcome to a

978
00:41:23,010 --> 00:41:19,599
week in science from arias bring you the

979
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:23,020
science you need to know 2014 was a

980
00:41:27,930 --> 00:41:25,420
massive year in science but there's also

981
00:41:35,420 --> 00:41:27,940
some weird stuff this week we're looking

982
00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:38,070
kicking off at top five is the ancient

983
00:41:42,930 --> 00:41:40,780
crustacean whose sperm is six times the

984
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:42,940
size of its body the tiny ostracod

985
00:41:47,339 --> 00:41:44,650
measures around one millimeter in length

986
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:47,349
but as sperm is nearly a centimeter long

987
00:41:52,140 --> 00:41:49,570
the way it fits inside the miniature

988
00:41:54,609 --> 00:41:52,150
crustacean is by coiling itself up like

989
00:41:59,859 --> 00:41:57,039
and what I like to call hygienic homies

990
00:42:01,410 --> 00:41:59,869
comes in at number four the fist bump is

991
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:01,420
the most hygienic of greetings

992
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:03,680
transferring up to ninety percent less

993
00:42:08,739 --> 00:42:05,930
bacteria between people than a handshake

994
00:42:11,019 --> 00:42:08,749
a high-five was also more hygienic than

995
00:42:12,849 --> 00:42:11,029
the traditional handshake so all this

996
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:12,859
time Barack Obama wasn't only being

997
00:42:19,299 --> 00:42:17,359
super cool is also being hygienic ever

998
00:42:21,249 --> 00:42:19,309
wondered how much bacteria passes

999
00:42:23,529 --> 00:42:21,259
between people when they kiss well now

1000
00:42:25,690 --> 00:42:23,539
we know dutch researchers studied

1001
00:42:27,999 --> 00:42:25,700
kissing couples and found that a six

1002
00:42:30,099 --> 00:42:28,009
second kiss transfers around 80 million

1003
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:30,109
bacteria from mouth to mouth and

1004
00:42:34,779 --> 00:42:32,690
unsurprisingly this transfer means

1005
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:34,789
couples have a more similar profile of

1006
00:42:39,759 --> 00:42:37,130
oral bacteria than two randomly paired

1007
00:42:42,130 --> 00:42:39,769
people and kind of disturbingly they've

1008
00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:42,140
opened a display in an Amsterdam museum

1009
00:42:48,059 --> 00:42:44,029
where you can kiss your partner and find

1010
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:48,069
out your own bacteria transfer profile

1011
00:42:54,069 --> 00:42:51,170
at number two is a study which found the

1012
00:42:56,170 --> 00:42:54,079
ideal cheese for pizza now we can't say

1013
00:42:58,569 --> 00:42:56,180
move over mozzarella because it still

1014
00:43:00,999 --> 00:42:58,579
took top gong but we found out way more

1015
00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:01,009
than we really needed to about how

1016
00:43:06,970 --> 00:43:03,920
cheese's melt bubble release water and

1017
00:43:09,009 --> 00:43:06,980
oil and brown under heat it did develop

1018
00:43:11,470 --> 00:43:09,019
new techniques for studying food and

1019
00:43:13,539 --> 00:43:11,480
cheese characteristics and also gave us

1020
00:43:18,249 --> 00:43:13,549
information on how to customize our own

1021
00:43:21,069 --> 00:43:18,259
cheese blend for pizza and the number

1022
00:43:23,019 --> 00:43:21,079
one weird science story for 2014 is the

1023
00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:23,029
revelation we might be hitting peak

1024
00:43:27,339 --> 00:43:25,430
beard this stems from a study that found

1025
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:27,349
that the most attractive facial hair a

1026
00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:29,930
man can have is heavy stubble but this

1027
00:43:34,539 --> 00:43:31,940
raises the question do these preferences

1028
00:43:36,609 --> 00:43:34,549
change researchers found that as a

1029
00:43:38,859 --> 00:43:36,619
particular facial hair style gets more

1030
00:43:42,099 --> 00:43:38,869
popular in the population it becomes

1031
00:43:46,089 --> 00:43:42,109
less attractive overall so rare is best

1032
00:43:49,150 --> 00:43:46,099
if you want to be most attractive that's

1033
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:49,160
our top 5 weird science stories for 2014

1034
00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:51,410
there's more information on the RLS

1035
00:43:58,269 --> 00:43:55,910
websites are I aus org to a you follow

1036
00:44:00,579 --> 00:43:58,279
us on twitter at arias and like us on

1037
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:00,589
facebook i'm ben lewis and we'll catch

1038
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:13,470
ad hominem begging the question factoid

1039
00:44:17,730 --> 00:44:15,609
propagation false analogy false cause

1040
00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:17,740
false dichotomy gibberish immunized

1041
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:19,569
hypothesis moral equivalence poison the

1042
00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:21,130
well simple modern certitude stacking a

1043
00:44:25,650 --> 00:44:23,740
deck and WTF are just some of the

1044
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:25,660
fallacies we provide real life examples

1045
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:28,150
of in hunting humbug 101 a podcast about

1046
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:32,050
bad arguments check it out at WWF text

1047
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:46,000
field guide net here's main art spooky

1048
00:44:55,010 --> 00:44:52,970
well it's time to get really paranoid

1049
00:44:56,210 --> 00:44:55,020
now it's paranoid corner would Maynard

1050
00:44:58,130 --> 00:44:56,220
here we have a doctor who is a

1051
00:45:00,320 --> 00:44:58,140
specialist in actually what is your name

1052
00:45:02,750 --> 00:45:00,330
why did you get your degree and what are

1053
00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:02,760
you a specialist in so my name is Grant

1054
00:45:07,460 --> 00:45:05,550
Hill Cawthon I did my original degree in

1055
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:07,470
medicine because I wanted to become a

1056
00:45:11,930 --> 00:45:09,510
doctor I then became another type of

1057
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:11,940
doctor so I did my PhD and I specialized

1058
00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:13,200
in infectious disease that's a

1059
00:45:17,690 --> 00:45:15,540
microbiology so I ask why why were you

1060
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,700
drawn to that as a field it was

1061
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:19,680
originally I was very interested in

1062
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:22,140
neurology so I was interesting brains in

1063
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:24,210
general and how they work and then I had

1064
00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:25,890
a few cases when I was a junior doctor

1065
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:27,780
where it was quite clear that people

1066
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:29,910
with viral infections of the brains or

1067
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:32,310
fell through the gaps infectious disease

1068
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:33,650
people didn't know what to do with them

1069
00:45:37,940 --> 00:45:35,760
neurologists didn't sigh one I then

1070
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:37,950
specialize in infectious diseases to try

1071
00:45:41,540 --> 00:45:40,140
and fill some of that gap in okay and

1072
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:41,550
you're going to be talking about a

1073
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:43,050
boldly here today because that's getting

1074
00:45:46,370 --> 00:45:44,850
all the headlines and everything is is

1075
00:45:48,260 --> 00:45:46,380
that really anything we should even be

1076
00:45:50,570 --> 00:45:48,270
vaguely worried about in this country at

1077
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:50,580
this time in this country there really

1078
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:52,530
isn't much point being worried it you

1079
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:54,090
might we might get an occasional

1080
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:56,730
imported case here but really because we

1081
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,560
have a first-rate health care system we

1082
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:00,720
have good infection control and people

1083
00:46:04,820 --> 00:46:02,520
would be identified quickly you wouldn't

1084
00:46:06,260 --> 00:46:04,830
see any kind of forward transmission so

1085
00:46:08,450 --> 00:46:06,270
you won't see additional cases within

1086
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:08,460
Australia although that didn't happen in

1087
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:09,810
Texas there was someone to another

1088
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:11,520
hospital in Texas and I didn't recognize

1089
00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:13,170
they had them based on their symptoms

1090
00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:15,240
what happened there so there they had a

1091
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:17,670
very different set up in the US so they

1092
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:19,290
the person that presented to the

1093
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:21,510
hospital mr. Duncan went to his local

1094
00:46:25,490 --> 00:46:23,520
hospital and then was treated at his

1095
00:46:27,230 --> 00:46:25,500
local hospital the problem with doing

1096
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:27,240
that is your healthcare staff for every

1097
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:28,890
hospital in your country isn't going to

1098
00:46:32,330 --> 00:46:30,990
be trained to the same degree to use

1099
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:32,340
different types of personal protective

1100
00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:35,250
equipment so in particular the nurses

1101
00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:37,020
that were involved in his hemodialysis

1102
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:38,700
hadn't had any training so they had seen

1103
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:40,710
a half an hour video on what they're

1104
00:46:44,570 --> 00:46:42,240
supposed to do and therefore weren't

1105
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:44,580
prepared okay and we're better than that

1106
00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:46,740
generally in this country so in this

1107
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:48,359
country we took a different approach we

1108
00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:50,880
decided to designate special quality in

1109
00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:52,830
hospitals in each state so if you

1110
00:46:56,450 --> 00:46:54,630
present to the wrong North Shore

1111
00:46:58,130 --> 00:46:56,460
Hospital and they think you might have a

1112
00:46:59,540 --> 00:46:58,140
bowler they'll isolate you and

1113
00:47:02,180 --> 00:46:59,550
immediately send you to Westmead

1114
00:47:05,780 --> 00:47:02,190
Hospital in Sydney for identify

1115
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:05,790
treatment etc because in westmead we've

1116
00:47:09,830 --> 00:47:07,980
spent lots of time setting up two rooms

1117
00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:09,840
to contain these patients we've trained

1118
00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:11,640
all the staff are practiced and

1119
00:47:17,390 --> 00:47:14,070
practiced and so there's not the same

1120
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:17,400
risk that you saw in the u.s. look I

1121
00:47:20,990 --> 00:47:18,810
would imagine the most dangerous thing

1122
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:21,000
would be an airborne avian flu would

1123
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:22,530
that be one the most dangerous things we

1124
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:25,290
we could face as it as a human race some

1125
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:27,150
some kind of flu so it doesn't

1126
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:28,800
necessarily have to be avian flu but

1127
00:47:33,410 --> 00:47:31,530
certainly flu we know undergoes these

1128
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:33,420
huge genetic changes to what we call

1129
00:47:37,820 --> 00:47:36,210
genetic shifts where you suddenly have a

1130
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:37,830
version of flu that none of us have ever

1131
00:47:41,330 --> 00:47:39,450
seen so our immune systems don't know

1132
00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:41,340
how to respond to that and if it is

1133
00:47:46,850 --> 00:47:44,040
capable of being highly transmitted like

1134
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:46,860
the 1918 Spanish free for example then

1135
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:48,570
that can have a dramatic effect on

1136
00:47:54,350 --> 00:47:51,420
humans so 1918 flu killed more people

1137
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:54,360
than the First World War but isn't as

1138
00:47:58,700 --> 00:47:56,280
recognized by people and isn't as well

1139
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:58,710
known so flu and viruses like that are

1140
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:00,960
the ones to be worried about and what

1141
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:04,020
makes a baller so infectious in layman's

1142
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:05,760
terms I was talking about how it's

1143
00:48:10,010 --> 00:48:07,410
similar to hepatitis in transmission but

1144
00:48:12,110 --> 00:48:10,020
it's much more infective why is it so

1145
00:48:13,460 --> 00:48:12,120
what you tend to seem people who have a

1146
00:48:15,290 --> 00:48:13,470
bowler particularly when they're at the

1147
00:48:16,940 --> 00:48:15,300
stage where they're vomiting diarrhea or

1148
00:48:20,180 --> 00:48:16,950
even have the kind of bleeding symptoms

1149
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:20,190
is I have very high viral loads so in

1150
00:48:24,650 --> 00:48:22,260
each milliliter of blood there's huge

1151
00:48:27,110 --> 00:48:24,660
amounts of virus and that virus if you

1152
00:48:28,940 --> 00:48:27,120
then transmit get some of that blood in

1153
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:28,950
your eye or in your mouth or your nose

1154
00:48:35,330 --> 00:48:32,850
or four metal diarrhea or after they've

1155
00:48:38,180 --> 00:48:35,340
died and there's virus on the body then

1156
00:48:40,460 --> 00:48:38,190
it doesn't take much blood to actually

1157
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:40,470
get infected by that virus the other key

1158
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:43,530
thing with Ebola versus a HIV is it

1159
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:46,050
takes very few virus particles to

1160
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:48,090
actually set up an infection was in HIV

1161
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:50,070
you need far more of the virus to

1162
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:52,440
actually set it up in your body and they

1163
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:54,930
got a cleared cause as to how this virus

1164
00:48:58,940 --> 00:48:56,970
came about as a due to the eating of

1165
00:49:01,520 --> 00:48:58,950
bush meat or some sort of transmutation

1166
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:01,530
that way we know that Ebola lives within

1167
00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:04,110
bat populations in Africa and certainly

1168
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:06,150
it looks like the bats have migrated

1169
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:07,920
from Central Africa where they were

1170
00:49:13,010 --> 00:49:11,010
before over to West Africa so all of the

1171
00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:13,020
genetic information and the epidemiology

1172
00:49:17,420 --> 00:49:14,609
that's been done in Guinea where this

1173
00:49:20,539 --> 00:49:17,430
started points to a small town called

1174
00:49:23,479 --> 00:49:20,549
Millie and II where the parents were

1175
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,489
preparing raw bat and their two-year-old

1176
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:25,920
child inadvertently got infected with

1177
00:49:30,049 --> 00:49:28,170
Ebola and so that was patient zero if

1178
00:49:31,819 --> 00:49:30,059
you like and it's from there from

1179
00:49:33,319 --> 00:49:31,829
looking after that child the impact on

1180
00:49:35,509 --> 00:49:33,329
the family and then other people being

1181
00:49:37,339 --> 00:49:35,519
infected that this has then spread and

1182
00:49:39,140 --> 00:49:37,349
we've seen that with every Ebola

1183
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:39,150
outbreak is it seems to have spilled

1184
00:49:43,549 --> 00:49:41,130
over from what we call the sylvatic

1185
00:49:46,849 --> 00:49:43,559
cycle so animals out there in nature and

1186
00:49:49,279 --> 00:49:46,859
this happens as we move into animals

1187
00:49:51,019 --> 00:49:49,289
territories so in guinea they realized

1188
00:49:52,609 --> 00:49:51,029
after the war finished and they had a

1189
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:52,619
stable government they could now chop

1190
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:54,150
down the trees and they have a good

1191
00:49:58,279 --> 00:49:56,670
source of income mining moved in cleared

1192
00:50:00,049 --> 00:49:58,289
lots of areas so you're suddenly getting

1193
00:50:02,479 --> 00:50:00,059
animals constrained in one small area

1194
00:50:04,489 --> 00:50:02,489
you getting people becoming more reliant

1195
00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:04,499
on that kind of meat and so you set up

1196
00:50:08,989 --> 00:50:06,900
these systems for getting what we call

1197
00:50:11,210 --> 00:50:08,999
zoonotic infections so infections from

1198
00:50:13,339 --> 00:50:11,220
animals to humans could ask you the

1199
00:50:15,650 --> 00:50:13,349
historical question as an infectious

1200
00:50:17,450 --> 00:50:15,660
diseases doctor I've heard that the

1201
00:50:19,130 --> 00:50:17,460
bubonic plague doesn't always match up

1202
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:19,140
with some of the symptoms what the black

1203
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:20,640
death was do you have any do you have

1204
00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:23,130
you heard about that at all yeah so what

1205
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:25,230
we call plague yesenia's pestis which is

1206
00:50:30,109 --> 00:50:28,170
a bacteria has actually crossed over

1207
00:50:31,940 --> 00:50:30,119
into humans multiple times so there's

1208
00:50:34,099 --> 00:50:31,950
been some very recent genetic studies

1209
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:34,109
that Sean the very first Justinian's

1210
00:50:38,299 --> 00:50:35,940
plague for example that affected and

1211
00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:38,309
helped bring about the end of the Roman

1212
00:50:43,819 --> 00:50:40,680
Empire was a former plague but that came

1213
00:50:45,620 --> 00:50:43,829
from animals but very sip separately to

1214
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:45,630
the Black Death which moved over into

1215
00:50:49,789 --> 00:50:47,970
humans which is separate to the current

1216
00:50:51,499 --> 00:50:49,799
episodes of plague that you see in

1217
00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:51,509
Madagascar at the moment for example

1218
00:50:55,759 --> 00:50:53,369
where there's a big outbreak so they're

1219
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,769
all cross-species transmissions it's not

1220
00:50:59,210 --> 00:50:57,359
near that the plague sits around for

1221
00:51:01,130 --> 00:50:59,220
ages and so there's slightly different

1222
00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:01,140
forms yes so they're slightly different

1223
00:51:05,809 --> 00:51:03,420
forms each time and so they have

1224
00:51:08,269 --> 00:51:05,819
different propensity to spread human to

1225
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:08,279
human and so we see now the plague isn't

1226
00:51:11,690 --> 00:51:09,930
as bad as say the black death or

1227
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:11,700
Justinian's plague it's less virulent

1228
00:51:16,130 --> 00:51:14,640
nowadays and as an infectious diseases

1229
00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:16,140
doctor you bit nervous when you go to a

1230
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:17,940
salad bar in a public area and that sort

1231
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:20,640
of thing no most of the time that's all

1232
00:51:23,749 --> 00:51:22,710
well controlled you don't wash your

1233
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:23,759
hands a bit more than the average person

1234
00:51:29,310 --> 00:51:27,730
no I'm then part of the working in

1235
00:51:30,780 --> 00:51:29,320
just diseases you know what the risks

1236
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:30,790
are you know that you have a good immune

1237
00:51:35,220 --> 00:51:32,890
system to fight these things if you eat

1238
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,230
healthily you keep your immune system

1239
00:51:39,150 --> 00:51:37,359
fine to get enough sleep then you can

1240
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:39,160
deal with those kind of infections as

1241
00:51:42,540 --> 00:51:40,930
they come along a [\h__\h] being to skip

1242
00:51:44,190 --> 00:51:42,550
big conference of it there's one phrase

1243
00:51:47,010 --> 00:51:44,200
you really hate that people say you can

1244
00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:47,020
strengthen your immune system yes and we

1245
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:48,430
never quite know what that actually

1246
00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:49,990
means and actually it's interesting when

1247
00:51:54,540 --> 00:51:52,000
you think about things I pandemic flu or

1248
00:51:57,090 --> 00:51:54,550
Ebola that actually affects people with

1249
00:51:58,890 --> 00:51:57,100
strong immune systems were more than

1250
00:52:01,170 --> 00:51:58,900
people with weak immune systems because

1251
00:52:02,970 --> 00:52:01,180
it's really act against themselves yeah

1252
00:52:04,859 --> 00:52:02,980
it's there all of the symptoms are

1253
00:52:06,330 --> 00:52:04,869
because your immune system is reacting

1254
00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:06,340
to the virus it's not the virus itself

1255
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:09,340
so actually in pandemic flu for example

1256
00:52:13,770 --> 00:52:11,560
or the deaths normally occur within the

1257
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:13,780
18 to 40 age range where people have the

1258
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:15,490
strongest immune system so yes

1259
00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:16,960
strengthening immune system doesn't

1260
00:52:21,210 --> 00:52:19,750
really mean that much yeah and taking

1261
00:52:23,130 --> 00:52:21,220
vitamin C doesn't mean that much is

1262
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:23,140
nothing you can actually do to help is

1263
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:24,760
there really no it's getting a good

1264
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:27,070
balanced diet we know that vitamins in a

1265
00:52:30,810 --> 00:52:29,530
tablet form just don't really work in

1266
00:52:32,310 --> 00:52:30,820
the same way that they do if you get

1267
00:52:34,109 --> 00:52:32,320
them in fruit and veg and in a good

1268
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:34,119
balanced diet so that's actually the

1269
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:35,890
most important thing okay there's a

1270
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:37,090
really frustrate you would some of the

1271
00:52:40,590 --> 00:52:38,770
popular media reports of the whole a

1272
00:52:42,180 --> 00:52:40,600
bowler thing or or anything really

1273
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:42,190
because they they just tend to get the

1274
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:43,690
wrong end of the stick and then beat

1275
00:52:47,550 --> 00:52:45,760
around the bush with it yeah and it is

1276
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:47,560
always a big risk and actually with the

1277
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:49,690
current Ebola outbreak the questions

1278
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:51,280
have always been about what does it mean

1279
00:52:54,270 --> 00:52:52,810
for Australia what does it mean for the

1280
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,280
United States there's very little

1281
00:52:59,400 --> 00:52:57,280
concentration on the 15,000 cases that

1282
00:53:01,500 --> 00:52:59,410
have occurred in West Africa the 5,000

1283
00:53:04,109 --> 00:53:01,510
deaths so that's where our attention

1284
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:04,119
should be not what's the impact on us of

1285
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:05,410
course I imagine you wouldn't be a big

1286
00:53:09,390 --> 00:53:07,090
supporter of her sending some homeopathy

1287
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:09,400
over there really no and that's one of

1288
00:53:12,660 --> 00:53:10,810
the things we've we've actually seen

1289
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:12,670
homeopathic practitioners go out there

1290
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,310
and these countries have wised up to

1291
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:16,960
this and are trying to stop visas

1292
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:18,970
they're trying to bring about bands we

1293
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:20,530
see the same thing with silver

1294
00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:22,570
preparations lots of going around about

1295
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:25,150
that and the FDA has had to consistently

1296
00:53:28,890 --> 00:53:27,070
send out cease and desist letters to

1297
00:53:31,410 --> 00:53:28,900
these companies to try and stop this

1298
00:53:32,910 --> 00:53:31,420
misinformation from going about look get

1299
00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:32,920
out there on stage and spread the

1300
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:34,750
critical thinking today yeah that's the

1301
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:36,400
idea we're trying to dispel myths and

1302
00:53:40,109 --> 00:53:38,350
try and get the focus back on West

1303
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:40,119
Africa and get an A to them rather than

1304
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:40,650
why we know

1305
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:42,690
about all of this these myths and

1306
00:53:48,019 --> 00:53:45,450
legends that surround Ebola I guess the

1307
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:48,029
term is evidence-based yeah we won both

1308
00:53:51,289 --> 00:53:49,650
evidence-based medicine and that's what

1309
00:53:53,299 --> 00:53:51,299
we're pushing for in treatments but also

1310
00:53:55,130 --> 00:53:53,309
evidence-based policy so we need to

1311
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:55,140
think and should we be banned in flight

1312
00:53:59,150 --> 00:53:57,119
should we be screening incoming

1313
00:54:00,740 --> 00:53:59,160
passengers should we be quarantine in

1314
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:00,750
people when they don't have any signs of

1315
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:02,130
infection these are the kind of things

1316
00:54:05,390 --> 00:54:04,170
that have been set up by certain

1317
00:54:07,549 --> 00:54:05,400
governments where there's no evidence

1318
00:54:09,589 --> 00:54:07,559
base for them and it's not good practice

1319
00:54:33,539 --> 00:54:09,599
so we need evidence based policy along

1320
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:36,130
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1321
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:38,000
zone and thank you for the people

1322
00:54:44,140 --> 00:54:39,710
writing in saying how much you enjoy our

1323
00:54:46,059 --> 00:54:44,150
new reporters Joe alabaster and highly

1324
00:54:48,370 --> 00:54:46,069
robertson more from both of those

1325
00:54:50,740 --> 00:54:48,380
wonderful ladies coming up in the coming

1326
00:54:53,859 --> 00:54:50,750
weeks and thank you to those people who

1327
00:54:59,289 --> 00:54:53,869
are buying the vaccination chronicles

1328
00:55:02,700 --> 00:54:59,299
DVD by visiting www.mtv scrolling down

1329
00:55:06,009 --> 00:55:02,710
on the left there and finding the link

1330
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:06,019
$12 posted anywhere in the world you'll

1331
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:09,410
get the DVD signed by me and then it's

1332
00:55:15,099 --> 00:55:12,170
up to you to watch it if you want copy

1333
00:55:16,269 --> 00:55:15,109
it oh yes copy it and copy it and copy

1334
00:55:18,430 --> 00:55:16,279
it and give it to your friends you can

1335
00:55:20,799 --> 00:55:18,440
copy it and copy it and copy it let's

1336
00:55:24,430 --> 00:55:20,809
get lots of copies out there for at the

1337
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:24,440
moment now this measles outbreak here in

1338
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:27,410
the United States I guess things like

1339
00:55:31,690 --> 00:55:29,599
this are really needed and as ever thank

1340
00:55:34,059 --> 00:55:31,700
you to the people who are show your

1341
00:55:37,210 --> 00:55:34,069
support for the skeptic zone by chipping

1342
00:55:39,490 --> 00:55:37,220
in with a paypal and you can do that at

1343
00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:39,500
the skeptics own website as well much

1344
00:55:45,430 --> 00:55:43,099
appreciated and necessary for the

1345
00:55:49,749 --> 00:55:45,440
continuation of the show but now it's

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time for me to start looking at packing

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my bags for that long trip across the

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Pacific and until next week where i'll

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be back in sydney australia this is

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richard sodas signing off from the San

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you've been listening to the skeptic

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00:56:15,820 --> 00:56:12,050
zone visit our website at www skeptics